To Snip or Not to Snip? That is the Question.
Until I learned I was having a boy, I never thought much about circumcision. I assumed everyone had their sons circumcised, that it was a gruesome rite of passage for most American males.
I found out the sex of my baby at the same time that a number of female bloggers wrote posts against circumcision. Debate ensued in the comments, mostly among women, as to whether circumcision was a matter of informed parental choice or cultural barbarism. I respect the opinions of those who are against circumcision, but, as is often the case, the Internet mommyblogger bandwagon doesn't reflect what I encounter in my "real" life.
In my reality, every man I've spoken to about circumcising my son has said, without hesitation, "Do it." In my reality, most men are circumcised and so are their sons. In my reality, none of the women I know have even seen an uncircumcised penis.
Do I think that circumcision seems ridiculous and unnecessary? Yes. Do I wish I lived in a perfect society where circumcision was unheard of? Yes. Unfortunately, though, that's not what I'm experiencing in real life. Taking our cultural circumstances into consideration, I'm leaning toward the belief that any pain my son might experience in a properly anaesthetized surgical procedure at birth is far less than the pain he would experience as an uncircumcised young man, feeling the embarrassment of being different and sexually undesirable (whether that perception is real or imagined). Some of you have sworn that by the time my son is a teenager, 50% of his friends will be uncircumcised. Maybe that's true where you live, but from what I'm seeing, it won't be the case here. At the same time, I feel like I'm damned if we snip and damned if we don't, because if we do, he may later wish he were still intact. If we don't, on the other hand, we may be forcing him to take a stand that he never wanted to take- and one thing I do know is that the procedure is much more painful and nerve wracking as an adult than it would be for him as a newborn. I'm afraid he would harbor more resentment toward me for creating a situation in which he has to have an uncomfortable surgery in order to feel "normal."
I find it interesting that so many women have come out swinging against circumcision, yet we've heard from few fathers in this discussion- and shouldn't their opinions have a tremendous amount of weight here? I had already decided that my husband would have the final say as to whether our son would be circumcised, because it is, despite all our clucking and outrage, a guy thing. I can't really understand the significance of being circumcised, but I think that as our son's father, he can, and is the best person to decide whether the benefits for our son outweigh the risks. Still, although we're leaning in the circumcision direction, we have 2 1/2 months to make a decision and with that in mind, I'm trying to gather as much information as possible.
I would love to hear what the dads out there have to say- and what my female readers' husbands and boyfriends think about circumcision. I realize that I may be opening a can of worms with this, but I worry that women who are choosing to circumcise their sons (and I know there are a lot of you out there) are being frightened into online silence for fear of being verbally attacked. And I think that the best thing that can happen as far as the circumcision debate is concerned is to have an honest, civil discussion on both sides of the issue. I'll say in advance that any name-calling, flame-throwing comments will be deleted, unless they're funny, in which case I'll leave them up so that we can all laugh at you.
So. What do you think?
*Thanks for all your opinions. Unfortunately, the comments got hijacked by mothering.com about 140 comments down (you'll see my own comment down in there about this when it happened). The remaining comments are almost exclusively from mothering.com discussion board readers (known to have trainwrecked many a great discussion) and together, set an absolutely different tone (shrill and even rude) than the commenters prior to that time. If you're looking for a great cross-section of opinions on the matter, start at the beginning of the comments and stop when you get to the mothering.com comments.
I found out the sex of my baby at the same time that a number of female bloggers wrote posts against circumcision. Debate ensued in the comments, mostly among women, as to whether circumcision was a matter of informed parental choice or cultural barbarism. I respect the opinions of those who are against circumcision, but, as is often the case, the Internet mommyblogger bandwagon doesn't reflect what I encounter in my "real" life.
In my reality, every man I've spoken to about circumcising my son has said, without hesitation, "Do it." In my reality, most men are circumcised and so are their sons. In my reality, none of the women I know have even seen an uncircumcised penis.
Do I think that circumcision seems ridiculous and unnecessary? Yes. Do I wish I lived in a perfect society where circumcision was unheard of? Yes. Unfortunately, though, that's not what I'm experiencing in real life. Taking our cultural circumstances into consideration, I'm leaning toward the belief that any pain my son might experience in a properly anaesthetized surgical procedure at birth is far less than the pain he would experience as an uncircumcised young man, feeling the embarrassment of being different and sexually undesirable (whether that perception is real or imagined). Some of you have sworn that by the time my son is a teenager, 50% of his friends will be uncircumcised. Maybe that's true where you live, but from what I'm seeing, it won't be the case here. At the same time, I feel like I'm damned if we snip and damned if we don't, because if we do, he may later wish he were still intact. If we don't, on the other hand, we may be forcing him to take a stand that he never wanted to take- and one thing I do know is that the procedure is much more painful and nerve wracking as an adult than it would be for him as a newborn. I'm afraid he would harbor more resentment toward me for creating a situation in which he has to have an uncomfortable surgery in order to feel "normal."
I find it interesting that so many women have come out swinging against circumcision, yet we've heard from few fathers in this discussion- and shouldn't their opinions have a tremendous amount of weight here? I had already decided that my husband would have the final say as to whether our son would be circumcised, because it is, despite all our clucking and outrage, a guy thing. I can't really understand the significance of being circumcised, but I think that as our son's father, he can, and is the best person to decide whether the benefits for our son outweigh the risks. Still, although we're leaning in the circumcision direction, we have 2 1/2 months to make a decision and with that in mind, I'm trying to gather as much information as possible.
I would love to hear what the dads out there have to say- and what my female readers' husbands and boyfriends think about circumcision. I realize that I may be opening a can of worms with this, but I worry that women who are choosing to circumcise their sons (and I know there are a lot of you out there) are being frightened into online silence for fear of being verbally attacked. And I think that the best thing that can happen as far as the circumcision debate is concerned is to have an honest, civil discussion on both sides of the issue. I'll say in advance that any name-calling, flame-throwing comments will be deleted, unless they're funny, in which case I'll leave them up so that we can all laugh at you.
So. What do you think?
*Thanks for all your opinions. Unfortunately, the comments got hijacked by mothering.com about 140 comments down (you'll see my own comment down in there about this when it happened). The remaining comments are almost exclusively from mothering.com discussion board readers (known to have trainwrecked many a great discussion) and together, set an absolutely different tone (shrill and even rude) than the commenters prior to that time. If you're looking for a great cross-section of opinions on the matter, start at the beginning of the comments and stop when you get to the mothering.com comments.
Labels: pregnancy
232 Comments:
I was circumcised, I'm not a father. Of course, I've never had a memory of the actual experience, and have never thought anything of it. I don't know about the medical debate surrounding it. I suppose it is a cultural norm which shouldn't be abandoned without serious thought, and participating in which you would allow your son to assert his differences in more important ways later on.
Great post.
My husband and I agreed to have the guy snipped. It took less than a few minutes and he only wailed once. I was told by our nurse that the anesthesia would be as painful as the prodecure. Something about nerve endings, etc.
To be honest? Our kid screamed three times more loudly at having his heel pricked for jaundice testing than he did for the circumcision. And I don't see all the mother hens clucking about anesthetizing a baby's foot for this obviously painful procedure. Or for his two week shots.
You're right; in the South, it's more cultural than anything else. In our large playgroup, all the boys were circumcised. And aside from an unpleasant experience at 12 hours old that I assure you my son at 15 months has forgotten about, I haven't heard any solid, good reasons not to do it.
When hubs and I discussed this before our sons were born, he said there would be no discussion. Our kids would definately be snipped. He could list every kid in his high school who had not been snipped because they were the butt of everyone's jokes. And what would their s*x experiences be like, esp if their wife (or probably girlfriend, YIKES!)thought "it" looked weird? I didn't want them to have to warn their partners, "I just have to tell you, this thing is going to look strange because I'm not circumcised."
So while is may be traumatic for them for a few minutes, it's better than traumatic teenage years/young adults years. And it certainly can't be as traumatic as being born.
If you decide to do it, here is another question you'll need to have decided. They will ask you whether or not you want to give them painkillers. Some doctors won't do it because they say the shot to numb the area is almost as painful as the snipping itself. I fell for this and did not numb my second child, which I felt bad for.
Bottom line, both boys and hubs are snipped and everyone is as happy as can be!
Both of my boys were were snipped. The youngest did not even cry. He was too busy happily sucking on his pacifer to even notice. I personally think it is every individual parents choice to have it done.
All 3 of my sons have been circumcised. It seemed to bother me more than it did any one of them. They screamed briefly and fell asleep. Treating it was simple and painless for each of them. Maybe it is just a cultural thing, but we never even thought of not doing it.
And after hearing stories of locker room behavior from my oldest, I think he is very happy to be just like everyone else. Because boys are just gross about their man hood.
Recently it's been discovered that circumcized men are 50% less likely to become infected with HIV. I don't know if that applies to other STDs but if you need a health reason, there it is...
There was virtually no debate that our son would be circumcised. My husband thought it was best, and was even the one present when the procedure was done. Which seems fitting to me. It is definitely, as you say, a guy thing.
I'm pretty sure you know I'm not a father (that I know of, heh) but, both of my boys are circumcised.
Just thought I'd throw that in.
My son isn't circumcised. My husband is.
I live in small town Iowa - which by definition I think is the opposite of anything remotely resembling "progressive".
When we were talking about snipping or not snipping, we heard a lot of "don't you want him to be the same as his dad?!?!" I asked my husband about this and he laughed. He pointed out that he had no plans of standing around a urinal with his son as he got older, comparing penises.
Neither of my two brothers are circumcised - and I assure you, it has not hindered them in anyway - socially, mentally, or otherwise.
For us it came down to - this is an ELECTIVE thing. Do we have a reason TO do it? vs. Why NOT?
We had zero health or religious reasons to do it. So we didn't. And that was it for us.
When I asked my hubby for his opinion, it was like ya sure. So I'm guessing for men it's not as big of a deal.
I have seen an uncircumcised penis and I was actually really surprised! I went to change my new foster baby's diaper and said to my mom, "What's wrong with his penis?" Now that wasn't meant in a mean way, it was more of a serious observation.
A teenage boy in the locker room who is the only one who is uncircumcised isn't going to be able to hide it. In my opinion, it's more socially acceptable to do it then to not. If 50% of kids are uncircumcised by the time he's older, then it shouldn't be a big deal either way.
My dad wasn't circumcised (I ask for his opinion when I had my son and he told me lol) and had some medical complications as a teen and had to have it done later in life. He said it was the most awful experience he's ever had.
My husband is snipped, and during both pregnancies, we talked about what we would do with our little one if it was a boy. I strongly believe that it should be up to the father, and he has said that he would not bother going through with it with our babies. (We're due with our second girl, so it hasn't REALLY been an issue). In BC where I live (West Coast Canada), very few new baby boys get the snip, and it's no longer done in hospitals. We have provincial health care here which covers all of the birthing procedures and hospital stay, but if you want to get your son circumcised, you not only have to take him to a clinic when he's a few weeks old, but you have to pay for it. It's not a "normal" thing to do here. Personally, I wouldn't want to deal with the extra care that's involved in taking care of keeping it clean for the first while, and the threat of infection. I think that if you have some sort of religious reason, then go for it, otherwise, just leave it alone. But that's MY oppinion!
I agreed with both of my sons' fathers to leave the decision up to them. Then I had trouble living with that agreement- I was against circumcision.
Having worked in pediatrics, I have assisted in many newborn circs. I have seen older boys recovering from them done at later ages. I spoke with Urologists. There are VERY few medical indications for circumcision and wouldn't you know, I somehow managed to end up with both the fathers of my sons having those medical conditions- both of them ended up circumcised in their 20s due to scarring of the foreskin that did not respond to other treatments. One had another son who ended up circumcised at 13 due to the same scarring. So I agreed using that rare medical condition as justification. That soothed my conscience a bit. In the future, I would wait to decide until birth, to review all the medical information for that child and not let social stigma be the deciding factor.
But it's still tough. Since I had a chance to know men who had lived both intact and circ'd, they were less influenced by the social aspects and more by the medical reasons.
I would have it done for a few reasons.
1) There is some evidence that partners of uncut men have a higher incidence of cervical cancer and some genital infections, from simple yeast on up.
2) Quite frankly, uncircumcized ones look weird and kind of gross and I'd hate his partner to be icked out by it when he got older.
3) A good friend of ours had to have his done at age 9 and it was horrifying and traumatic for him, so I'd rather do it when they can't remember and get it over with in case of later problems.
I let my husband decide. He wanted our son snipped. It was no big deal. They put this little ring on his penis, that fell off in about a week. It didn't seem to bother him at all. He didn't come back to the room screaming.
I think there are medical benefits to being snipped, and it is a rather low risk procedure. Where I live almost all boys have it done.
I don't think it is a big deal either way. It's a personal choice that shouldn't be viewed as "good " or "bad" either way you go.
Now this is coming from a person who has yet to ever give birth and also is not male (clearly), but I do type medical records for a children's hospital and I can not even tell you the number of procedures I end up typing up for young babies - all the way up to 8 years - who were not circumcised and now they are dealing with adhesions and crap like that. It's just not good. I never had an opinion either way until I started working in this field. It just seems like a rather large risk in the future.
I'm glad to see that I'm not the only mom who avoided making this decision by leaving it up to my husband! I did do some research, and it seemed like there were risks and benefits either way. For my husband, it came down to believing that is was better for his son to look like him and the other males in the family.
If you do it, prepared to temporarily regret your decision every time you open your son's diaper for a week or so, and see the little wound. I felt terrible until he healed up. Now I'm fine with our decision.
Of course, as a mommyblogger you already know that ANY decision you make as a parent will make some people think you are a completely incompetent and horrible parent (and the opposite decision would make a different group of people feel the same way!)
I'm with all the people siting the health reasons. There are real, concrete studies that prove circumcision is better for the sexual, reproduction health of both your son and his future partners.
Also, as a mom of a boy who was circumcized, those tiny little penises can be hard to clean anyway. My son got tons of gunk under the hood of his penis which I had to pull back and clean. I can't imagine how difficult that would have been with foreskin to deal with.
Also, I know teenaged boys. They don't clean themselves well. With foreskin intact you've got to pay better attention to hygiene and I didn't want to have to ride my older sons butt about cleaning his uncircumsized penis properly.
I haven't read any of this 'debate', but it sounds like the same group of moms who take everything too far...from not giving their kids chocolate or watch too much tv...to not letting them have a normal, snipped American-looking penis, lol. Sorry...just kidding about the american-looking part.
Maybe I didn't think this through enough, but shortly before my daughter's birth, her doctor asked us what our plans were (in case the ultrasound was wrong). We both said "circumcise." I must be out of step; I've always heard that it is healthier to be circumcised than not. Although it would break my heart to hear my hypothetical little boy cry; for that or for anything else.
I'm not going to give you pros/cons, but I'll just say that I've got 3 boys whose foreskins are flapping in the breeze! ;)
I'm a mother or two girls, but I've dated un-circ'd men.
One who stood out attended a private, all-boys high school and went on to attend a private all-men's college. He was never taunted about it and never had any medical problems (nor have any of the other un-circ'd men I've talked to - and yes, it's come up in conversations when friends are having baby boys!).
As far as any gross-out factor for me goes.....to be blunt...no. None. It looked a tiny bit different aroused, and it was "interesting" to see it soft (since I'd never seen one up until then), but honestly, his foreskin didn't get in the way of sex or condom use.
For every medical study that says circ-ing prevents this-and-that, there's another one that says it makes no difference whatsoever.
I'm against it for non-religious reasons, and if I had a boy I wouldn't. Why do something just because "everyone else does"? Lots of replies so far that say circ-ing was needed late in life, but in every other "debate" I've read over this issue, that wasn't the case.
My advice would be to get information from the AAP (http://www.aap.org/) and the AMA (http://www.ama-assn.org/) and see if you can find studies from both sides of the debate before making your decision.
Meg
I know about the debate, and while I must confess to being neither a man nor the mother of a boy (yet), I do think there's enough evidence to warrent circumscision in boys as infants if that's what the parents wish to do.
Studies are showing that it provides men (and their partners) with fewer incidence of infections.
So for me, I think the barrage of bullets fired over this choice parents have (ie how we treat each other with respect to decisions we make) is more barbaric than the procedure.
We had this debate seven-and-a-half years ago. I read the same sort of stuff you have read. I felt the same way you do.
And when I went to Hubs with my conundrum, he said, "My son will be circumcised, and that's final."
And I said, Okaaaaaay. Guess that settles that.
I really don't see how this is any more barbaric than the shots we give our children, and yes I'm well aware of that debate, you don't EVEN wanna get me started with all that.
Basically, my feelings about circumcision are, he will never remember it, and the chances that he will resent you FOR circumcising are much less than the chances of him resenting you for NOT circumcising.
And really, in the end, it should be up to his father.
But that's just my opinion. And you know what they say about opinions! ;-)
Great post!
One thing to consider besides appearance and health (although pretty much every study I've ever read says that there is NO health benefit to snipping) is the sexual/sensation effect of snipping vs. no. My husband is very anti-snipping, because he literally had ALL of his foreskin removed, and the -er - most sensitive spots are exposed and sometimes chafed uncomfortably. He really, really wishes he had some foreskin. Plus, he says that there are a lot of articles in men's magazines, and discussion with friends, that shows sometimes having the foreskin intact actually increases sexual pleasure (extra bit of rubbing, I suppose?). I talked with my mom about this, since she had to handle this matter with my brother (30 years ago, but still), and she tells me that she instructed the doctor to remove just a minimal amount of foreskin - thus having the culturally "normal" appearance but still some protective skin. So maybe there's a happy medium? I can say that after seeing the photos of a freshly circumcised little penis in my chidlbirth class - I'd have a hard time putting my little guy under the knife.
Although I'm not a soon to be dad, just a soon to be mommy (55 days!!! ;)) for my husband and I this was a no brainer decision. My husband immediately wanted a circumcision and I agreed. It is a cultural norm and something the baby will never remember. Unfortunately the day I went to the doctor and met with the first midwife (my hospital has a team of midwives to do the deliveries) I was berated for my decision. Now I have a backbone so nothing she said will sway me, but I was in shock at what this woman, A MIDWIFE, NOT A DOCTOR, was saying to me. Her first words to me were, "Don't you know that this hurts the baby?" Then she went on to suggest that we wait until our son is 12 or 13 and could make his own decision. I practically laughed in her face. Besides the circimcision thing she was concerned that my husband was not at the doctor's appointment with me and was worried that I would not have the support I needed as a new mother. She didn't even listen to me when I explained that they had changed my appointment to two hours earlier in the day and my husband was working. That is why I chose to have a close friend who is a doula with me in the delivery room. I think circumcision is a decision you and your husband have to make on your own and with what you are comfortable with. Everyone else can just go fly a kite.
I was against hurting my son in anyway but left that decision to my husband because well, I don't have a penis.
He said "yes!" to circumcision because he felt that our son would be picked on and teased, he also feel like it would be much harder to keep clean as a child and since I had twins, it would be one less thing I would have to worry about.
I am still sad thinkign about his newborn pain but I am glad it is over.
My son was born in Canada so we had to pay for his circumcision. We were all homebirth, no intervention, do nothing that isn't neccessary, and I asked why would we circumcize then? But my husband's mom is Jewish, all six of her sons were snipped. He told me he thinks that it does something at the core of his maleness that reminds him always that he belongs to God. That's the religious reason anyway. We had it done.
This is where I lose the respect of the entire world. Our son, almost 6 months old, came off the plane from Korea "unsnipped". For all of the reasons you listed above, we decided to have the procedure done. It's a LOT harder at 6 months than as a newborn; you have to do it outpatient and the boy has to be knocked out to do it.
I'm just glad his mama wasn't there when he came to.
Anyway, we don't regret it. My wife can give you all kinds of medical reasons why it's a good idea, and I had all the cultural ones.
I don't hold it against people who don't do it, but if you and your husbands want to have it done, by all means, do! Just don't wait till he's 6 months old. ;)
Long time lurker, first time commenter. It would have to be this post, too!
My husband is not circumcised. My son-is. My husband has a problem with not being circumcised, and has since I met him. He feels that it makes him different, that it isn't 'manly', or like other men's. It doesn't matter to me, but he was very vocal (and had the final decision)about our son getting circumsized. He said he didn't want him to grow up feeling the same way about himself.
That is my 2 cents. No opinion, no suggestion. Just my man's point of view. Good luck in making your decision.
I have two sons who are both circumsized. I have two brothers who are not circumsized. They have both undergone several penile infections in their lives. It seems as young children it is harder for a boy to keep himself totally cleaned when he isn't circumsized. Both of them have said they wished they had been circumsized as babies. They are both in their early 20's and are afraid of having the surgery now (fear of the pain).
I told my husband it was his call, and he said yes, definitely, for both societal and medical reasons. It seems like a lot of people I know follow the "Look like Daddy" rule, and that definitely played a part, but I think what really swayed us was knowing someone who had to have it done in his 40's and how agonizing it was for him.
i live in your area and can count off the top of my head a half dozen boys my son's age (19 months) that are not circumcised. as a matter of fact at any playdate with male kids it is more likely to see an uncircumcised boy than circumcised. we chose not to, my husband agreed. there was no big argument.
the medical reasons to circumcise are spotty at best and even the american medical association has stated that there are limited medical reasons to circumcise.
that being said, i think it is a personal decision and not really anyone's business one way or the other. we chose not to because i feel like my son has the right to make that choice later in life, if he is unhappy with his penis being uncircumcised. but until he's old enough to decide for himself the foreskin is staying on!
I am a 30 year old female and have never seen a circumcised penis. Lest you think I was brought up by nuns in Austria listening to the hills alive with the sound of music, I am the oldest (and only) girl of 7 boys. That's a lot of penis. I have a live in boyfriend, so it's not just a family thing.
My SIL is Jewish, so my new nephew will be snipped.
My husband is from the UK, and in England/ Europe, no one gets the snip. I am not a mother yet, but when my husband and I have talked about it (thinking ahead), he has said that his son will absolutely not be circumsized. However, I am not sure that he understands that almost all American men are (I think by the time they're 30 they stop gawking at each other's in the restroom). When the subject comes up for real, I will let him make the call, although I think he will stick to his orginal response. I have had several good friends give birth to boys over the past few months, and none of them have had it done, so maybe the tides are turning after all!
I'm not a father, but as a circumcised man, I'm qualified, I think. My opinion: absolutely, 100%, do not circumcise your son.
Since the comments have been so overwhelming in support of circumcision, I can't respond to every argument, as much as I'd be willing to do so. I'll hit a few specific points, but this, from dcrmom, is a good summary of the problem with circumcising infants without immediate medical need:
Basically, my feelings about circumcision are, he will never remember it, and the chances that he will resent you FOR circumcising are much less than the chances of him resenting you for NOT circumcising.
He will never remember it is not a valid justification. If it is, that would justify a lot of unseemly treatment. Children wouldn't remember a beating, but that doesn't make it acceptable.
As for the chance that your son will resent you, in America, it's small. But it exists. If the choice over whether or not to remove a natural, healthy functioning part of my anatomy had been left to me, I would never have made the decision to cut off my foreskin. Never. And evidence from every intact man I know points to the fact that, barring immediate medical need, intact men do not choose to have themselves circumcised. Very telling. Social acceptability is not enough.
The difference in doing it and not doing it is what the boy, to whom the penis belongs, can do about it. If you leave him intact and he hates it, he can make the choice. If you cut him and he hates it, he's stuck.
One of the biggest fears in the comments seems to be that intact boys will be teased. In my experience growing up in the South, no one was ever teased for a foreskin. But for me, I had a much more common problem. I have red hair, which caused me grief. Today, at 33, I still get teased on the street. Instead of demanding that my parents dye my hair to be more socially acceptable, I learned to ignore the taunts for the meaningless reflection on the teaser.
How is surgical, permanent alteration of a boy's genitals, which will not be seen every day, more reasonable than than not using hair dye for something that will be seen every moment of every day?
To the argument that his future partner(s) will find it icky. Who says? Can parents really know what their son's partner(s) will like sexually? What if his partner(s) prefer intact? And, more importantly, what message does it send to males that they need to be altered to satisfy women? If we reverse that and say that a woman needs to get implants to satisfy a man, we rightly decry him as a pig. Why the double standard?
The intact penis is not harder to keep clean. Until a few years after birth, the foreskin adheres to the penis. Do not retract this, as you would not prod into a girl's genitalia. Just wash like every other body part. As he gets older, and his foreskin separates, teach him to wash, as well as the consequences of not washing. These are the same as every other body part.
The foreskin's adherence brings up another point. To circumcise, the doctor will have to rip the foreskin from the glans. The same cells that hold the foreskin to the glans holds nails to fingers. What kind of damage will that do, even if he doesn't feel it?
If the doctor uses painkiller, the boy will still have an open wound for at least a week. This will cause pain.
As to the stories that foreskins cause problems, if we poll gynecologists, they're going to tell us that vaginas are diseased and troublesome. What should we do about those while they're healthy, cut them up? And infections? Girls get those, too, in greater numbers than intact boys. With girls we treat them when they arise, with less invasive methods than cutting.
Boys should be protected. Their bodies belong to them. They are not subject to whims of parents when surgery and permanent alteration is involved. Immediate medical necessity is the only valid criteria for surgically altering children.
As a guy, I've never compared my penis to my dad's and don't want to. ick. And I can't say I've ever compared it to anybody else's, either. It's generally not accepted in this country for guys to sit around talking about each others' private parts. I don't "get" any circumcision argument that has anything to do with other people's privates.
To me, it comes down to "why?" If I were to have a son, I doubt I'd get him circumcised because it just doesn't seem to serve much of a purpose. And it might be painful later, but at least you can have a "later." If you're circumcised (as I am), there is no "later."
And with that being said, whenever I hear my wife talking to my step-son about washing under his foreskin, I shudder. ugh. I never want to hear that again. And I don't want to think of washing under my son's foreskin, either, if I were to have a son.
My cousin opted to have himself circumcised at the ag of 14. Think about that or a second.
To me, that is the end all. It was an easy decision to have all 3 (and the fourth on the way) of my sons ciscumcised.
As far as I am concerned, this is a medical decision. I would hope that my son would be able to deal with any 'locker room' issues there were, and if not, then what kind of child have I raised? Besides, beginning with "is there a particular reason you're looking at my penis?", I could come up with a few dozen retorts to end it.
Medically, when Skippy (age 13) was born, there was plenty of research saying circumcision was unnecessary. I have yet to hear differently.
Change happens when men of conscience stand up and say "I'm going to do what's right for my family, and not what others in the locker room think is right."
My husband is uncircumcised. He had a lot of sexual partners before me, and not one had a negative reaction to it. Not one. I had never seen an uncircumcised penis up close until I met him, and for about three minutes I thought it was a little weird. I quickly got over it, however, and now I actually prefer the "natural look."
He says that he's glad his parents didn't circumcise him. Apparently uncircumcised men get more satisfaction from sex - more nerve endings, or something like that. And there are more things a partner can do with an uncircumcised penis. Uncircumcised men just need to do a little extra work to keep clean, and it's no harder than cleaning your bellybutton.
I think I've just caused you to think about your unborn son's sex life. I'm really, really sorry about that. Please forgive me.
Actually, you made me wonder when was the last time I cleaned my belly button. ;)
Well, I'm a female and also have never had children, but I am from the South and have a bit of an anecdote about the subject.
I went to school within 100 miles of Nashville - not a large school but not a tiny one by any means. There was one - ONE - boy in my school that was uncircumcised. And EVERYONE knew about it - girls and guys - because he was the only one.
I honestly don't know whether there was a lot of teasing involved by the other boys. I would guess probably in junior high but not likely by high school since it was old news by then. But given how teenagers deal with sexuality issues, especially younger teenagers - I just can't even comprehend what it must have been like for that boy to know that every girl in school knew what his penis looked like, most without having seen it themselves.
Now, granted, that was 20+ years ago, but I'd about guarantee that's it's still probably true there today, that no boys, or only one or two, there are uncircumcised. Mainly because most of the kids there today are the children of people I went to school with, and every single one of those moms and dads remember how that one boy was the only boy in the entire school, for years.
Sure it's a mostly social thing, and not necessarily "right" or "wrong". But kids so often have a hard time fitting in or dealing with issues of differences as it is, and I have a lot of doubts that in this part of the country, it would ever be the majority rather than minority. That's just my opinion, of course, but I think if I have a male child, I'd have a hard time agreeing to something that would likely set him apart as different such as the above boy I knew...
Regarding circumcision, our pediatrician was neutral. The American Academy of Pediatrics (which has a left wing agenda) are neutral due to lack of compelling evidence either way.
We chose circumcision because of the reduced incidence of UTI, infections, strictures (a nephew had to be circumcised at 7 years of age due to a stricture of the foreskin), penile cancer, etc. associated with the procedure.
The anti-circumcision crowd will advocate their point of view with the difficulty of the 2 weeks of circ-care post procedure, decreased sensation (without a way to scientifically control for it, there is no before/after study on infant circumcision), and that all of the pro-data has soft endpoints...
If you don't go for the circ- hygene, hygene, hygene.
If you do go for it...talk to your OB about getting a comfortable OB to do it. They do procedures for a living. Peditricians will do it, but they do less procedures and they have more of a financial incentive to do it ($150 to follow a well baby in the hospital, $250 for the procedure). The moyles in town are not the best.
I will be curious to which way you go.
My hubby of 3 years is not circumcised, and is the first man in my life not to be. I have no idea whether or not there's any *difference* -- I haven't noticed one myself. ;)
Hubby did not have his son (now 34) circumcised, and he has never lacked for female companionship, or for male friends.
Good luck with this one. I'm going to try to get hubby to throw in his two cents here as well, since he's actually had to deal with this issue himself.
WIP
I went through this with my last pregnancy. Even though I didn't find out the gender, we discussed it. I felt much like you do, that ultimately the final say would be up to my husband.
Now for a little TMI.
My husband is not circumcised. He was born in Vietnam and it just wasn't done. His younger brothers were born here in America and are. So, maybe it is a cultural thing.
I will say this, it's not 'icky' (as I've heard) and it doesn't stink. It does take a little extra care but in the grand scheme of things, that's not such a big deal.
My son is circumcised.
Mrs X
I'm sorry but after reading all the responses I had to add this:
I have yet to see a penis that didn't look pretty freakin' weird.
Mrs X
Lynnster said:
I just can't even comprehend what it must have been like for that boy to know that every girl in school knew what his penis looked like, most without having seen it themselves.
Every girl in school knew what every other boy's penis looked like without having seen it. It's just as easy to imagine a circumcised penis as it is an intact penis. The question is whether or not we teach our children that the judgment of others warrants surgical alteration. Before we've been judged, in the case of infants.
I have no regrets whatsoever about having my son circumsised. And although I'm now out of the baby-making business, I would make the same choice if it were so presented.
I do take issue with those who equate it to mere mutilation for the sake of mutilation. I find very little in life offensive, but that stance tends to get me going a bit. From my perspective, it is a personal choice. And whatever you and your husband choose will be right.
As an aside, I disagree with you and some of your commenters on leaving the decision entirely up to the father. I think in a partnership, it is of the utmost importance to be in agreement on something like this. That's just the two cents of a single father.
For what it's worth.
Best,
Ryan
Tony - granted, every girl in school knew what penises looked like, circumcised or uncircumcised, yes.
Well, except the point is that in this particular Tennessee town, none of the girls would have necessarily known what an uncircumcised penis was without having looked it up in an encyclopedia. We knew because all the boys in school told all the girls what this young man's uncircumcised penis looked like.
And to be a 12, 13, 14 year old boy and know that the 12, 13, 14 year girls were all talking about and perhaps giggling (some of them did, though not to his face) his penis which was the only uncircumcised one around, for years - had to have been embarrassing at that age, dealing with junior high sexuality.
That is my point, and the point also being that for the most part, in this part of the country, not being circumcised just generally is not done, and therefore most boys that aren't will be set apart and considered different. It is, again, a cultural and societal thing - but that stuff has pretty big value in the mind of 12 and 13 year old kids.
I guess I should clarify that I think the father should make the final decision, provided the couple can generally be in agreement on it and have researched it and provided the father isn't a total asshole.
I feel comfortable with my husband having the final say, mostly because I'm torn and I feel like as the male in the family, he knows what's best as far as that's concerned. By the same token, if girls had to be circumcised, I would absolutely want the final say with my daughter, and would be outraged if my husband forced me to make a decision for her in that regard that was against my wishes.
I'm a mom of 3 boys in the south, where it's generally done in the hospital before discharge, and we did that as well.
During the procedure the doc found an "anamoly" on one boys' penis which we saw a urologist a couple of times for. I honestly can't remember what the issue was, and it's resolved now, but I don't know that anyone would have been looking at his wanker that closely if he hadn't been having the procedure done.
As has been said, tho, there are risks and benefits to everything-- that's just what happened in our family!
We adopted uncircumcised twin boys when they were six years old. I just checked with one 17-year-old, soccer-playing son about the locker room issue and he wasn't even aware of circumcision. His response to circumcision, when I explained the snipping? "That's weird, Mom." Now a lot of little boys resist baths (true stereotype) so I had to deal with a minor infection of one son when he was about nine. It cleared easily with over-the-counter triple antibiotic cream. In the late 60s I discovered my finance was uncircumcised (highly unusual for that age cohort), but it didn't gross me out and it did increase my sexual pleasure. I usually don't post anonymously, but I am this time!
Def snip snip. I am not a mom, but I am def. a woman who has seena few penises. And trust me, not that you want to think about this, but SNIP.
Even if 50% of guys be the time he is a teen are toting some hood, he'll still be fashionable. Because that's what it's all about.
SNIP
my dad didn't get snipped until he was 18, and he said it hurt like hell. He made sure his own son was circumsised promptly after birth. I made sure my own son were snipped, too. Like many of your readers, I, too have never seen a man un-cut. Not to mention folds of skins that boys are unlikely to clean well.
Hi, there, my husband is not circumcised, and we are both very, very glad. An uncircumcised penis is a sensitive, wonderful thing. Women who think an uncircumcised penis might be "icky" don't know what they are missing.
My seven year old son is not circumcised, either, and in our part of the country, he is in the majority. I think most educated parents are not circumcising these days, because "we've always done it that way" is not a good enough reason for surgery.
If your son will be in the minority in your part of the country, well, then, he'll be part of the movement for positive change. When change is needed, someone has got to go first. With your excellent writing skills and obvious intelligence, you could start something good in your area.
Bottom line: The foreskin grows there for a purpose--let it stay there and do it. The rest of the world isn't doing this to their infant sons because it's not evidence-based surgery. It doesn't make sense. It's time for American parents to start a new cultural norm.
I don't know why I can't sign in!!!!
"I feel comfortable with my husband having the final say, mostly because I'm torn and I feel like as the male in the family, he knows what's best as far as that's concerned. By the same token, if girls had to be circumcised, I would absolutely want the final say with my daughter, and would be outraged if my husband forced me to make a decision for her in that regard that was against my wishes."
(I don't mean any of this in a "flaming" way.)
Why? Why is Hubs the better judge on what's right for a child that's a part of BOTH of you, just because it's a boy? Why is Hubs better to make the final decision just because he was circ'd? He doesn't know any better than you do what it's like to be an uncirc'd male!
By that argument, you could also say that when Baby was born, Hubs knew better than you did on what was right for your child, as he already had two daughters. Nevernomind that Baby was the daughter of BOTH of you, and your step-daughters had a *different* mother with a different personality and possibly different way of looking at things.
No, even if Baby was Hubs' third daughter and only your first, you were still her *mother*, and parenting her, making any major decisions was a partnership. Not left to you because you were the female or left to him because he already had two daughters.
My point is, I don't think you should just go with what Hubs thinks because he's a man. I think that, just as with any other major family or parenting decision that (I hope) you make, you should look into both sides of it *together* and not let the onus of the "research" fall on you alone.
I just realised that I'm assuming Hubs is circ'ed.....so.....
If Hubs IS circ'ed, a lot has changed both medically and socially since the time it was done. I think that the two of you should both research it, and have equal input - after all, he's the son of BOTH of you, just as Baby is the daughter of both of you.
In the end, the decision you make is the decision you make. But it should be made, in my opinion, equally from both of you.
This is being written from a mother who has to struggle to get her ex-husband to "participate" in their daughters' "big" decisions, as he now lives 1/2 way across the country, hardly sees them, but still has 50% legal custody. Also from a woman who's fiancee is a much, much bigger part of her daughters' lives than their father is. I know I could leave their father out of 99% of their lives, and make decisions based only on what's going to work for my future family. But I don't, because even if he doesn't care, he's still their father legally, and I need his signature on too many things as they are under 18.
Meg
You did this on purpose, didn't you?
Now you've been pressed to the foreskin...er...forefront of 'The Revolution'.
I warned you about this.
I am circumcised and I have friends who are not. Pesonally I like the idea of having a piece of my penis waiting for me in heaven.
There are both good and bad points on either side of the pant leg.
An uncircumcised penis is slightly more difficult to keep clean (something to think about as teens do not always have the most hygenic habits)And a circumsized penis may become slightly desensitized due to continued friction against clothing. Either way the kid is gonna enjoy his ding a ling
Penis, penis? I never use the word penis. It sounds like something on the end of your foot. Like, Man I woke up this morning and stubbed my penis on the door...
I was willing to keep an open mind about it when we found out we were having a boy, actually, fairly indifferent. So I left the decision up to my husband. DH didn't think twice, "Absolutely!"
So snip, we did. I think it was the best choice... as far as I can tell, it's the norm around here and I think we spared him some trauma in middle and high school by making the decision. Currently pregnant again and if it's another boy, he will also be snipped.
I will warn you, it's heartbreaking when the doctor comes to take him away for the procedure. Honestly? Didn't seem to faze the baby though... he was fine when he came back.
Thanks for opening up a dialogue on this subject.
(I posted something from a nurse's perspective on my blog).
Great post!
i am a nicu rn so i have assisted in more than my fair hare of circumcisions. frankly, i hate them, even when the baby is anesticized.
medically there is no hard and fast good reason. it is an elective procedure and trust me, given i see babies' responses to pain all the time, it is painful period.
i can also attest to the fact of the boys born into my 20 year old's circle of friends as an infant and toddler, half were not circed. the average in the united states is a little less than 50% of boys born are not circed. nowadays many docs won't do it and many insurances won't cover it.
having said all that, my husband (who is circed only becasue his mom agreed because it was the thing to do)and i never agreed on the circumcison decion which is probably why we ended up having 4 daughters. then came our son. he is intact for several reasons:
he was born at 24 weeks gestation and in the 1st 4 months of life had 4 surgeries (he has had 9 total. his young life was filled with more pain than the average man could ever suvive, trust me. we honestly couldn't see submitting him to more pain just so his penis would look like his dad's
#2 he has a mild hypospadies which means the urethra is a bit off center. it is generally recommended by urologists NOT to circumcize because of potential damage to the penis plus increased issues with the flow of the urine stream....even more potential locker room trauma.
#3 he is adopted and the decision was not ours to make until age 1. why in the world would we do it then.
so big deal his penis doesn't look like daddy's or half of his male peers. he's in good company as his cousin is intact too.
ultimately we realized just how silly the debate and all the arguments for really were.
Hubby voted in favor of the snip. I am in favor as well. I respect the beliefs and traditions of others -- it is a tough decision.
Last I checked, I don't have a penis, however, I have two sons and a husband who do.
Mr. Smiff was not circumcised until he was 6 years old. It was a bit traumatic for him and nobody will answer me as to why it wasn't done when he was born.
My father was not circumcised and I will never forget after my first son was born and my dad was in his last few weeks of life, dying of cancer, barely talking to anybody. He did ask if we had the boy circumcised and I said we did and he said "Good." Take what you want from that story.
I think a good thought on the thing too is if Dad is, the boy should be.
hub is snipped, and my son is also snipped. hub was adamant about it at the time, and honestly I didn't really think about it either way.. SINCE then, I am more educated about it I suppose.
DH went with ds when he had it done (still in hospital), and came back pale and visibly upset.
would we do it again? I don't know.
I know you asked for men to weigh in but I couldn't resist. Circumcision reduces the risk of STDs including HIV. But if they use condoms like good little young adults then it doesn't matter whether they're snipped or not from a disease perspective. Not that everybody does.....
I'd get my sons done, even though I think my husband would vote no. As many people have said, though the risk of needing it done at a later age is small, it would be WAY more traumatizing to have it done as a 9 year old than as a 9 day old (or however old they are when it's done in infancy).
I sent you an email with our experiances of circumcisions. I put
Circumcision debate ~ Bluepaintred in the subject line, I was worried that my POV wou